Apology - But What's Happening

First - Apologies.
Apologies to those I may have upset on Wednesday 13th Aug run when I over-took everyone on the way back – the reason - I was bored with riding at 50-55mph in a straight line and down to 30mph round bends. I’d hardly been out of 4th gear all night.

What’s Happening.
The last 2 years we have run the Drop Off System along with Groups which catered for all abilities, needs, wishes. Now we only run groups for some reason (survey did have preference for Drop Off) so we have to ride at the speed of the slowest rider, no over-taking. In the past the pace has been good, over-take the slower riders, move along at own speed = great fun.
I know I have only been on about 6 Wednesday runs this year, 2 as back marker, 2 as leader and 2 in the middle. As back marker I would expect to run fast – that’s not happened. Going over the Cairn O’Mount as leader I slowed down to 20mph to let big cc bikes catch up.
Groups seem to catch up with each other, which mean all have to go slow and we have 20 bikes running at slow speeds. I have noticed that it is now common to see riders with their left hand on their knee; I counted 5 riders doing this on Wednesday.
It is good to see that the new-comers / slower riders continue to be given individual attention, which helps them along.
Yes we have a number of new members, but we seem to have lost a number of good riders and team players.
Things change, things evolve and so they should. In my opinion - may be not for the greater benefit of all members.
I see a suggestion in this forum that a person would consider being paid to organise events. I can not understanding these type of comments (even in fun) as we have managed in GMC and ADAM for years without the need to even think about paying someone.
It is great that Cecil continues to organise events and get magic deals for the club, and he does it all as a good hearted volunteer.

I hope that the above comments will not create a back lash from individuals who seem to relish continual confrontations and bickering.
So be it.

It will be interesting to see the replies / responses to the posting.

Firstly I must preceed the following with the fact that I have not been on many of the Wednesday night runs this year and this has been nothing to do with the style , organisation or otherwise of the runs but more to do with the current cost of fuel and my distance from Kingswells.

The runs I have been on have been led by Ian and the pace has been very enjoyable but we have indeed caught up with the group in front. Ian has usually coped with this by diverting and returning to the route later (However everyone is capable of this action).

Personally I did enjoy the Drop-Off system better as it enabled over-takes and maintaining one's own pace without causing unwanted pressure on the person in front. If you got to the front and became the marker then this allowed the whole process to start again which once to re-joined and again contributed to the individual's ability to set their own pace. Not everyone can run at a suitable pace to make the ride interesting for the more experienced riders in the club (and that is in no way meant as a criticism) but this didn't matter with the DO system because "Safe" overtakes were possible. In addition when overtakes are made of other vehicles outside the group it removes the quandry of how much space to leave for those following to get by and reform the group without the risk of being re-passed by the following vehicle which may have become frustrated.

As a minimum of 50% of those who responded to the club questionaire preferred the DO system it does seem strange that it is no longer offered.

On these fairly short , local , routes the waiting time at junctions for markers has rearely been more than 5 minutes so this is is not a significant factor to preclude using the DO system.

In reply to Dave's comments:

The current riders in the groups have shown no preference for the drop off. In fact, those attending most of the runs do not favour it and have said so. The nights we have used drop off due to lack of leaders, there was 'splinter' groups who set off on their own.

As regards to the survey, many people wanted camping weekends etc. but when organised have not taken part. The survey only tests the water at that time - people's views change, especially now the two systems have been seen and used.

Speed limits are at 60 mph on A class roads - we can't encourage or condone speeding on organised events due to insurance implications. If riders want to sit at 55 mph, so be it. You can't force people to ride faster. In fact, a number of those who have recently joined like the pace without pressure. Some of the roads we were on had poor surfaces, tight bends and I had one deer run across a short distance in front of me. Criticism of other riders speeds in these conditions is harsh and uncalled for.

I have led the front groups before and yes, the tail end groups can catch up given traffic and other conditions. I'm not the slowest of riders and you can't blame me on Wednesday for the cows on the road. Even my skills don't allow for that but we could argue till the cows came home.

With regards to the comment about payment - that was tongue in cheek. If anyone can't undertsand it theymust be part American - they don't do irony & humour either. Considering I have been the longest member and held various positions I think I earn the right to make comments like that. After all, I have given much time and effort for free for much longer than most. My reply was to remind people we are a voluntary committee and work for the members but our lives take priority in other areas and running the club may have to take a back step while holidays for family/work etc. takes precedence.

As regards the bickering etc. who is Dave pointing to? Nothing on forum, committee meetings run smoothly and in a friendly atmousphere and there are no confrontations at runs? It may be that the original post is designed to stir something up that isn't really there.

I don't know the reason for Dave's upset at speeds but he can always borrow my 250cc - 55mph feels fast!

Simple to resolve though - anyone can set off on their own and we'll see you at the end. Group of 1 and you won't upset anyone overtaking in the group.

The 'no overtaking' rule should be adhered to within the mirror groups and anyone complained about may have to be discussed at committee with view to action being taken. This rule is long standing and based on safety of all - if not happy with this it would be better not to ride in the groups.

Selfish and inconsiderate riding is not tolerated and any individual doing so will be dealt with - I still have my lead filled truncheon!

Nice one, Sticky. I liked the bit about the lead truncheon!

As the Wednesday runs co-ordinator, I have no problem with running a drop off group if there is a wish for it but I have not been approached about one this year. Personally, I dislike the system and have always made the point in the Committee, when it was the favoured option, that members should have the choice of the mirror system.

The reasons I disliked it were (1) that contrary to the perceived view that everyone rode to their own speed overtaking slower riders, my experience was that riders did not like passing slower riders with the result that all the riders ended up at the speed of the slowest rider. At least with the mirror system the group is a lot smaller. (2) There were continual hassles with folk going the wrong way, being chased by backmarkers, dropped off markers getting fed up or mistaking the backmarkers for other riders and setting off before the whole group were through, riders going home during the run and the riders behind following him home etc. When I was leading one of these runs, I had no idea what was going on behind apart the few riders in my mirrors and it used to be a big relief when all arrived at the Red Star without some form of FU.

Nevertheless, Dave is right that we have a problem with the mirror system as it is operated at present. We cater well for the beginner (inexperienced rider) and for intermediate riders but the result has been that we are giving experienced riders a poor deal. I've felt this myself, have lived with it on these particular runs and no one has complained to me so far though they must have been frustrated too.

So - I have a proposal to improve the organisation of the mirror system which will basically involve streaming of (at least) the first two groups away on the night. This I will circulate initially to the committee for comment and, should I get agreement, then go ahead with implementation.

Finally, I remember that one of the main drivers for iniating the drop off system was the lack of folk willing to lead a run (and knowing the route). This is not the case now as we have a good number of willing leaders, all of advanced standard of riding, who come to the run with a good knowledge of the intended route for the night.

But, to return to the beginning, I can run the drop off system if members want it.

Ian.

spandug wrote:

Nice one, Sticky. I liked the bit about the lead truncheon!

As the Wednesday runs co-ordinator, I have no problem with running a drop off group if there is a wish for it but I have not been approached about one this year. Personally, I dislike the system and have always made the point in the Committee, when it was the favoured option, that members should have the choice of the mirror system.

The reasons I disliked it were (1) that contrary to the perceived view that everyone rode to their own speed overtaking slower riders, my experience was that riders did not like passing slower riders with the result that all the riders ended up at the speed of the slowest rider. At least with the mirror system the group is a lot smaller. (2) There were continual hassles with folk going the wrong way, being chased by backmarkers, dropped off markers getting fed up or mistaking the backmarkers for other riders and setting off before the whole group were through, riders going home during the run and the riders behind following him home etc. When I was leading one of these runs, I had no idea what was going on behind apart the few riders in my mirrors and it used to be a big relief when all arrived at the Red Star without some form of FU.

Nevertheless, Dave is right that we have a problem with the mirror system as it is operated at present. We cater well for the beginner (inexperienced rider) and for intermediate riders but the result has been that we are giving experienced riders a poor deal. I've felt this myself, have lived with it on these particular runs and no one has complained to me so far though they must have been frustrated too.

So - I have a proposal to improve the organisation of the mirror system which will basically involve streaming of (at least) the first two groups away on the night. This I will circulate initially to the committee for comment and, should I get agreement, then go ahead with implementation.

Finally, I remember that one of the main drivers for iniating the drop off system was the lack of folk willing to lead a run (and knowing the route). This is not the case now as we have a good number of willing leaders, all of advanced standard of riding, who come to the run with a good knowledge of the intended route for the night.

But, to return to the beginning, I can run the drop off system if members want it.

Ian.

As usual the voice of reason , listening to club members without the threats.

I must say that Dave has always been the last one to condone excessive speed and many of the current committee must know that. It is therefore significant that he should comment and action be considered to address his thoughts.
I am 99.9% sure that no attack was being made on leaders of the group nor the encouragement of higher speeds from the front.
However , as has been discusssed on many , many occasions , its the average speed throughout the ride that is the problem for more "experienced" riders.
On twisty roads like the South Deeside , to name one , some of the less confident riders slow right down and whereas in the case of single bends ground can be made up easilly and a view of the preceeding rider regained quickly , this is not the case on multiple bends.

May I suggest that Keith joins a group in the middle to ascertain whether Dave is making a valid point before wagging the finger - I cant think of anyone on the previous committee that was more committed to maintaining a safe speed within clubs runs for the safety of all.

As to riding 250 cc , perhaps we should all trade our bikes in for scooters and thus remove the worry..........however I wont be joining them for a ride !

I await the outcome of the Committes discussion with interest.

Perhaps other members have an opinion they are willing to express ?

What threats!

Where is everyone's sense of humour these days!? Lighten up.

I have been middle groups and have no problems. I have also been lead group on my 250 and led from the front.

The vast majority of our club are not advanced riders - they all have different levels of skill. Even advanced riders are known to drop their bikes! People enjoy coming to the club for the friendship and the run, not just speed. We can get that at any time ourselves.

One thing that has not been addressed - why does one member feel the need to overtake a group just because they feel like it? Apology apart, is it a valid reason? How about comments on this part?

As a leader, why should I feel pressurised at the front to ride quickly for the 'adrenalin junkies'? What about me leading riders into corners too quickly and someone taking a spill? Is it my responsibility to ride fast as a leader?

If you want to lead a group - step up and tell us. I can then sit back and watch your riding......was that a threat....??

Doh - the humour police will be out again.......

Point by Point

Quote(Keith)
The 'no overtaking' rule should be adhered to within the mirror groups and anyone complained about may have to be discussed at committee with view to action being taken. This rule is long standing and based on safety of all - if not happy with this it would be better not to ride in the groups.
Selfish and inconsiderate riding is not tolerated and any individual doing so will be dealt with - I still have my lead filled truncheon!
Unquote

A bit extreme when aimed at someone who has alread apologised and has otherwise been a stalwart campaigner for safe speed and riding but became overcome by frustration on this single occasion.

Quote(Keith)
One thing that has not been addressed - why does one member feel the need to overtake a group just because they feel like it? Apology apart, is it a valid reason? How about comments on this part?
Unquote

Dave has already explained the reason and did not try to excuse his behaviour but merely put forward a question

Quote(Keith)
The vast majority of our club are not advanced riders - they all have different levels of skill.
Even advanced riders are known to drop their bikes! People enjoy coming to the club for the friendship and the run, not just speed.
We can get that at any time ourselves.
Unquote

You do not have to be advanced to ride a corner properly and in any case the problem does not emanate from the leader but rather from within the group and hence the question of how this can addressed to the benefit of the more experienced riders within the club hence:-

Quote(Ian)
Nevertheless, Dave is right that we have a problem with the mirror system as it is operated at present. We cater well for the beginner (inexperienced rider) and for intermediate riders but the result has been that we are giving experienced riders a poor deal. I've felt this myself, have lived with it on these particular runs and no one has complained to me so far though they must have been frustrated too.
Unquote

Quote(Keith)
As a leader, why should I feel pressurised at the front to ride quickly for the 'adrenalin junkies'? What about me leading riders into corners too quickly and someone taking a spill? Is it my responsibility to ride fast as a leader?
Unquote

No such pressure was being applied and I think this has been taken too personally in regard to individual leaders on this or any other paricular run hence:-

Quote(Allan)
I am 99.9% sure that no attack was being made on leaders of the group nor the encouragement of higher speeds from the front.
Unquote

Perhaps Dave might like to confirm or correct that impression.

Quote(Keith)
If you want to lead a group - step up and tell us. I can then sit back and watch your riding......was that a threat....??
Unquote

Dont know was it ? , lets hope not but if so directed at whom ????

Quote(Keith)
Doh - the humour police will be out again.......
Unquote

Sometimes when discussing important matters humour is best left out in order to focus on the matter in hand and avoid confusion and misinterpretation.

Hopefully the committee will be able discuss this matter calmly and leave any apparent animosity behind in an effort to improve the ride quality for experienced riders on a Wednesday evening.

I for one , hope so.

My mistake - I thought Dave's apology to the group for his inappropriate overtaking was addressed to the group I was in. I was wrong, this was addressed to the group on a run the following week. There has been no apology / justification of why Dave also chose to overtake the group on Wed 6th Aug, clearly deliberately flouting the rules.
Sadly Allan, not ONE ocassion. My interpretation of your posting is that you condone Dave's action (albeit your were unaware of further misdemeanours) as this is a handy way of generating debate and a change to our group riding structure. You may like to respond to that one.
I feel very strongly that apologising for behaviour NEVER excuses it. Safety of our groups is paramount. One man becoming frustrated because things are not going his way and then acting in such a manner seriously compromises that safety. Even the doziest motorists on our planet must have seen the billboards on the motorways warning them that frustration (amongst others) leads to accidents.
The reference by Dave of bickering if we challenge his comments and the suggestion by Allan of some animosity (?within the committee / club members?) came as a surprise. Like Keith, up until Dave's posting I have seen no evidence of any at club runs, meetings, committee meetings, weekends away, on the forum etc.

Let this be the final posting.

Ali,
Point taken, but if had stayed put I would have been there to Dinnet, which has some great bends and I wanted to get home, - road was clear, had all my lights on - so went for it. Figured I would have upset a few, hence the immediate apology to all club members.
The point you make about group riding is very valid, we discussed that very matter at length over 2 years ago when we were debating introducing the DO system.
I’ve followed you a number of times Ali, and I consider you a safe, competent leader that keeps a good pace, do not let my action increase your speed, keep it safe.

Keith,
OOOHHH – You seem to have taken mine and others comments personally – should I be consulting a solicitor before any further replies??? = tongue in cheek type joke.
Perhaps my 1st posting should be read again, with a more open mind and looked at as constructive criticism and means to open some constructive comments from all club members. We seem to have got 100+ people looking at this chain – or may be just a few looking on and laughing, strange only 3 people have joined in.

To reply – Current riders, majority seem new-ish so may not have ridden in DO system and realise the benefits to their enjoyment. Survey did show preference and actual runs had a biased to DO system than Group when offered. As I said things change and evolve. Ian points are valid, in the past we offered both systems to accommodate all, is it worth the pain of trying to introduce the DO system again?

60mph limit – Whole heartily agree, in fact every run briefing I gave for 3 years mentioned this fact, speed limits always close to my concerns, the club cannot approve of speeding. The point I was making (as Gearbox plus Ian seems to have recognised) is that the average speed is slow. Two Wednesday runs still stick in my mind, 1= in group run 8 years ago along South Deeside road, never going above 60 or less than 50. 2= in DO system over Slug road/Stonehaven and onward, the whole thing flowed as DO system should.

My comments in no way were aimed at individuals at all or leaders or the committee, nor you.

Road surface – I thought the roads were fine. Deer, rabbit, pheasant, dead animals, mud, grit, washed down gravel, cars, tractors etc are all part of riding the roads we enjoy, adds to the challenge!. I agree that not even you can do much about slow moving cows on the road.

American - I take great offence at being accused / implication of being part American ( I apologise to any American reading this, no offence intended). Bringing peoples birth place is stooping very low, for the record I have no American connections, in fact Scottish is closer to reality. This comment may have been intended as joke – I did not consider it funny.
This sort of implication / comment / misunderstanding is one of the reasons why as past Chairman I resisted having such a Forum as this and open club emails. The power of written word is very strong and can be misinterpreted by all. Tongue in cheek comments can be read in a number of ways and should (in my opinion) not be used in emails or forums. I am sure that 5 people reading this reply and the other in this chain will have 5 different opinions. Gearboxes comments / Quotes in his last posting agree with this and show how things can be misinterpreted.

250cc bike – with my weight it would be hard pushed to get 55mph, but with group system I would still be doing 30mph round bends and waiting for cows in the road. The average speed would not improve.

Group of 1 – joke or not; the implication / interpretation to me is ‘Go Forth…..’. Which I take offence at. The ethos of GMC has always been to try and cater for all riders of all abilities on all type of bike, such that we promote safe riding and enjoyment of biking in a friendly atmosphere. Following comment from 2 members 2 years ago we added Group riding alongside the DO system, this catered for all wishes. The offer of both systems is limited to leader availability; runs I have been on this year could have offered this.

Overtaking Rule – Since I compiled / wrote / edited / revised and issued the GMC guidance notes on runs, I do not believe there is a ‘no overtaking’ rule, it is an unwritten rule we have always had, unless there is a revision not issued. The no overtaking note is fundamental to safe riding and operation of the Group system

Selfish, Inconsiderate – Yes my over take was, hence my immediate and unconditional apology to all club members I may have offended. As I said I was bored and frustrated, an alternative was to stop and wait 20mins, but I had 40 miles to cover to get home. If I had been a car driver following these group I would have been extremely frustrated, a few weeks ago a car did actually move through a group. Riding too slow in groups can put the group and other road users at risk

Truncheon – you know where you can stick that. = Joke!!!???? Is that why Tiggers Bounce so much and always smile?? = joke.

To All Readers / Players
It is obvious that this posting is not going to generate much further constructive comment as feathers are getting ruffled and I would imagine others have been told not to join the discussion. Therefore I would suggest this is ended now, but I am sure the matter will not be allowed to die a death.

See you all next week – I hope????

Dave – Rider of Black & White BMW R1200GSA

I have taken account of all comments on this post and it will be discussed at committee level and may mean members receiving a further questionnaire. I agree with Dave that this has denigrated to a level that is no longer helpful to the club.

I draw attention to the following from our 'Guidance on Runs':

B) Group System
When there are sufficient leaders available, small Groups of riders can be formed to a maximum
of 8 riders per group. It is important to understand that this system means that the Group
rides at the pace of the slowest rider and that there is NO OVERTAKING within the Group.

It is simple and clear - we run at the pace of the slowest rider within that group and there is no overtaking.

Hope this clarifies to all members on this forum.

My oh my, what is happening to our club????????

Stumpy - Bob R

Took a quick concensus from the 17 riders who came along on Wed 20th.

3 had never done drop off and didn't like the sound of it.

The other 14 were 100% for group riding. All were satisfied with the speed on previous runs.

There are only a few runs left for this year but this topic will be discussed for members to decide at AGM before next years runs commence.